Here’s an interview we couldn’t wait to share with you! We love Devin Townsend first of all for his genius music but also because of his unique, sometimes (a little) crazy and unusual personality. His personality is a breath of fresh air in a conformed and coded industry. What we really love is that this interview represents everything that we love in what we do: a man who is able to talk about himself without any restraint and who is open to self mockery. He is a man who tends to question himself and yet would rather he didn’t have to. He is an incredible human being. In fact he is so human that next to him other men come across as monsters. It is often believed that genius intelligence emanates from supermen, however, it could also be said that the genius in a man comes from his total acceptance of his own nature, through his beauty and through his ugliness. After all, that makes sense; you need to be profoundly human in order to reveal human emotions.

Anyway, here is an interview which can be read again and again in which we learn a lot about Devin Townsend, the man as well as the artist, and you might even learn a little about yourselves. Although he is excited and never stops speaking until he loses the thread of his story, he never loses any coherence in his words. We get the sense that these last few years have been quite intensely creative. The tetralogy genesis of Devin Townsend Project – Ki, Addicted, Deconstruction and Ghost – appears to have been almost like a traumatic experience. Yet a positive trauma because it enabled him to level with himself, in order to understand what is important about himself and about his way of dealing with life.

Enjoy.

Listen to the interview :

Radio Metal: You have now finished all four albums in the mammoth Devin Townsend Project tetralogy. Aren’t you feeling a kind of emptiness now that this is behind you?

Devin Townsend: Oh, it’s so awesome! I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it! I think I didn’t realise until it was finished… I realized halfway through what an undertaking it was, and I was like: “Oh, my God…” And at that point I was thinking that I needed two days of uninterrupted sleep. So now, after all four, it’s four days! But I mean, through doing these albums, I realized many things. One of which is that I did it for myself, and I don’t think it was essential for me to do it, but I’m glad I did it. Through doing it, I realized that there were a lot of things I had been postponing on an emotional level, in terms of my relationships and my life. I think it’s very easy to postpone if you’re constantly surrounding yourself with work. I think work is an addiction; I didn’t realize how trying it can be. So there is a void, but a very welcome one, that I was hoping to fill with, like, a hobby or something.

Outside of music?

Yeah. So much of my identity has been invested in what I’ve done for so long, that as I get older, I become less and less interested in myself. Trying to maintain this level of intensity – I’m over it. I’m not over music. I had to find things to write about that were interesting, and by doing this for four records, I hope I was able to kind of purge that feeling of self-importance that has plagued what I’ve done for so many years.

All through your career, you’ve been known to do completely crazy things, but Deconstruction is probably the most over the top album you’ve ever done. Were there some things you did on Deconstruction that you refrained yourself from doing up until this album?

Yeah. The funny thing about Deconstruction, in my opinion, is that it’s one of the most creatively free things that I’ve done, but it’s also probably the sanest record that I’ve done. Obviously, it doesn’t sound that way, but I think there’s a difference between allowing yourself to be crazy and being unaccountable. That’s my definition of crazy. If you do things that are creatively free without a sense of accountability for it, I think you’re playing with fire. But in the past, I’ve done that. Not now: I don’t drink, I don’t do drugs, I take the garbage out on Thursday… It’s obnoxiously normal, right? So what I wanted to do was revisit that, and in a way, say, through Deconstruction: “Here’s something that on the surface appears very random and sort of crazy”, but to underline the fact that it was done with complete control. Let’s take these melodies, these ideas, these streams of consciousness, one thing leading to another… Let’s take these musical ideals and compound them with an orchestra and a choir. In that way, I think I’m able to say: “Look: yes, it is creatively free, but it’s absolutely controlled”. I took the week-end off, and I went home at five and played with my kid. At no time did Deconstruction take control of me. I think that’s what I was trying to discover through it: can you do it with you being in control, as opposed to it being in control of you? And it was taxing, but it was fun, too. Ghost is my way of saying: “Here’s a complicated statement”, with the ultimate point of it being that I’m not really connected emotionally with complicated music. I don’t think it’s necessary. The music I would prefer is simple, like folk or new age-y stuff, or whatever. I really do like that. Improvised music, also. But I felt that in order to master the artistic bravery for me to make a record like Ghost, that is unabashedly what it is, I needed to make Deconstruction. I had to make a very complicated statement that says: “Hey, I’m not interested in complications”. So it sounds crazy, but I honestly don’t think it is!

Deconstruction and Ghost really sound like opposite albums but they’re actually perfectly complementary. Both albums call for the other. I mean, when Deconstruction ends all we want is to listen to some peaceful and calm music to kind of clean the wounds, and this is exactly what Ghost provides. Did you know from the start that each album would be an answer to the other?

I’d like to be able to sit back and say: “Oh yeah, I planned it all completely”. In a kind of broad sense, I did, but even the best-laid plans always tend to morph. The four records have ended up… The ultimate feeling I get from all four is what I was hoping I would achieve. The specifics have changed a little bit, like there’s songs I thought were important in the scheme of it that didn’t make it. Things I thought would be less important ended up playing a bigger role, etc. The complementary elements of it are largely coincidental, but the reason why it does work is because the chronology of it was absolutely intentional. I knew that Ki was supposed to mean this, and then that would lead to Addicted, which was supposed to mean this, and ultimately, it ends with this kind of neutral feeling, and then it loops back to Ki. Those elements I was aware of. But the specifics of how it was gonna work, I ultimately left up to trial and error.

Deconstruction sounds like it was done with no restraint, no compromise and no consideration for any rules: pure creative freedom. It sounds like the kind of extreme and crazy things we usually do to eradicate all of our frustrations, as if we had nothing to lose. Was this the state of mind you were into when you were doing this album? Did you have any frustrations to eradicate?

In the past, I’ve used catharsis as an excuse to do things that have a lack of artistic accountability, if you follow. I was like: “Oh, I’m just being cathartic”. When I was making Deconstruction, I thought there was a difference between catharsis and allowing myself just to trust that I was not going to do things that were bad. In the past, everything that I’ve done that I’ve been artistically on the fence about – in terms of its intention being sadistic or cruel or whatever –, ultimately came from me not being in control of my own mind. Some people shoot and do drugs, some people shoot and drink. In my case, it took me experimenting with it and making some public mistakes, that I was able to say: “Oh, OK, note to self: you might want to avoid that”. So Deconstruction almost gave clarity to these other times in my musical output, where I’ve experimented with the same thing. But ultimately, in my mind, I stopped short at some of the things I was able to do on Deconstruction, because I was either becoming too fascinated with myself, as with Infinity, or too afraid of myself, as with Alien. When the time came to do Deconstruction, the idea was like: “Face yourself. Really be aware of whether or not you believe in the potential of people in general”. I honestly believe that, with every day that goes by, I get a little less intelligent. But as a result of that, I was just like: “Do you think that at the root of it, you’re a bad person? Do you think that, in a situation where you have the opportunity of doing a bad thing, and you know it’s a bad thing to do, if you give yourself complete freedom, your true nature will show and you will act on that?” I had no idea. So I think I really had to be like: “Give yourself every opportunity to fail and see what happens with a clear mind”. And very soon, I recognized within myself that if it’s accountable for itself, if you put those elements of yourself that are self-destructive in the light, they will say: “Go for it, do that horrible thing.” However, it’s gonna be you that does it. It’s not gonna be a shadow of you, it’s not gonna be a puppet, it’s not gonna be from the shade. It’s gonna be right out, you know? And at that point, when it was face with the accountability of itself, it balked completely. The self-destructive mechanism in me was a scared child when it was forced to be accountable for itself. Very quickly, I recognized I wasn’t afraid of myself. In all honesty, presented with the option of doing the right thing or the wrong thing, I’ll do the right thing. From there, I was just like: “Oh, OK. In that case, if you want to be creative, there’s no limits to it. And as far as I can throw it, I will”. But the point of the record is that this is unimportant. This is artistic and mental masturbation. The whole idea of that is, of what value is it compared to the simple things? The elegant things in life are things that you can say in one or two words, as opposed to five or six hundred other things. Oh, I don’t shut up! Jesus Christ, I don’t stop! However, I think there is a huge difference between who I am and what I’m fortunate enough to be able to say in music. Like, who am I? I’m a mess. But artistically, I think I’m getting to a point where I’m not interested in the specifics of infinity. I’m interested in the tiny little equations that are metaphors for it. There it is; that’s infinity. I like that, it’s very nice. What the hell was I trying to say? I don’t know!

No, that was a very interesting answer!

Yeah? I got lost!

There are many very talented guests on Deconstruction. How did you decide to have them on the album? Was the music somehow begging to have them or was it a way to give a difficult album extra attention, marketing-wise?

It happened in both those ways. When I first started writing the riffs, there were certain riffs where I thought: “I’ve got a friend who would be perfect for this”. And when I started doing interviews, I said: “Hey, I’m gonna include these people on the record”. And the response was overwhelmingly: “Oh, I see. So you’re gonna take all these people and use their names to sell your record”. And I thought to myself: “That’s exactly how it’s gonna come across”. I was embarrassed about it, and I was like: “OK, I’m not going to do it, I’m not gonna include these people on the record”. Then I started recording it, and when those parts came up, I was like: “But I hear those people on it!” And because lyrically and conceptionally there’s a lot of different… not characters, but different points of view, I thought it would be interesting to have different voices. So in the end I decided to follow this idea. It’s not like a feature, it’s like a colour. In a lot of ways, it’s also a personal endorsement for me to have somebody I love as a person and also as a musician, to be able to say I back it. So I started with one and then decided to just go for it. Then I was stuck with the question: “How are you going to rationalize this in the press?” I phoned the label and ask them: “Can we not put a big sticker on the front of the album that says ‘Featuring whoever’?” They were OK with it. So now, when we do promo, people are gonna know who’s on it, but we didn’t put it on the press release. And when people ask me about it, I’m trying not to list all the persons who participated. There’s some really cool people on it, they have really small parts, and for the most part they’re friends of mine and have been for a long time. In a lot of cases, they’re like my age, with children, playing in heavy metal bands and trying to figure it out. It was a wonderful thing for me to have, but at the same time, there’s a 60-piece orchestra, and there’s a choir. I was trying to make something that was texturally interesting, without any of it being more of a focus than the entire project. The focus of the project, I’m hoping, will be the theme of it, which is everything in the kitchen sink. But really, I choose things that I find pretty and nice. Time will tell whether or not that makes any sense! We’ll see!

Who’s the female vocalist on Ghost? She has a very pretty voice…

Yeah, she does, doesn’t she? She’s a friend of friend, and she isn’t a singer. She works at a Buddhist centre in Vancouver. I think she’s like 22 or 23 years old. I didn’t really know her, but she sang on a record, and as I was recording her voice, it really touched me. I congratulated her for it, and I totally freaked her out too. I was like: “Hey, we worked together, and I really think you should be on this record”. She was like: “I’m not a singer”, and the whole vibe I got from her said: “And you’re creeping me out”. But I said: “Just do me a favour, just come down and sing on it. It’ll be easy and I’ll make it simple”. She did two or three sessions with me. I really like her, I think she’s a great person, and I needed her voice on it. But I needed to convince her that there was no ulterior motive! I told her I thought her voice was really cool, but I don’t think she really believed it! What comes out of that is a voice that is unaffected. She was like: “I sing because I’ve got a good voice, and I’m not a singer, and I’m not involved in the scene. But sure, I’ll help out”. Ultimately, what comes out of that, is a voice that is pure.

Exactly what the album needed.

I agree. A hundred percent.

At the beginning of the song Deconstruction, you’re saying: “You could take anything! A benign object of any sort… You could take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source!”. What the hell do you mean by that? Is this song pure craziness or is there a real thinking behind it?

(laughs) OK, here’s the real thinking. On the record Addicted, there’s a song called “Universe In A Ball”. When I cleared my head from drugs and whatever, I started to recognize that there’s really no mysteries, no metaphors. Everything really is what it is. However, I think that there’s an intellectual arrogance that assumes that in order to understand anything, like biology or mathematics, or the true nature and meaning of life, you have to control it. By “control it”, I mean “understand every element of it”. And I think that it’s ultimately a real human arrogance to think at we’re wired, at this point of evolution, to understand these things. The whole point of “Deconstruction” is that the character is so hell-bent on understanding what the things around him react with his environment vibrationnally, what it means spiritually, what it means for him as a person. What, what, what, why, why, why? This kind of existential blathering. That quote is supposed to be a parody of two people being philosophical with each other, and it takes them to the point where they think they’re so goddamn clever. The point of that is, everything is in everything. If you really focus intently on anything, you can find whatever you’re looking for. If you go far enough into a coffee cup, you’re gonna find infinity. This character is so hell-bent on figuring out himself that he’s processing everything – music, maths, sex, drugs, crime, religion, and spirituality – but without understanding that he’s doing it, because he thinks he’s really goddamn clever. So when he finally gets there, after investing all this time and energy and creative intellect into it, and when he steps away from it to see what it is he’s been looking at, it’s something that’s ludicrous. That’s why I chose the cheeseburger, because it’s stupid. And the whole point of it is that he’s a vegetarian! So after all this effort, he realizes that what he’s been spending all this time looking at is a joke, in a way. So at the end of “Deconstruction”, the lyrics are confused. He’s completely ashamed, he’s given himself a headache, and he’s put his family through this drama. He’s been rationalizing this artistic blathering or catharsis or whatever, when in all honesty, it is what it is! So was it necessary to do this? And I think it’s necessary to learn the lesson. And so on the last song, “Poltergeist”, basically the character is talking to himself and saying: “OK, now that you’ve come to this conclusion, are we clear that this was not a waste of time, but that there was a lesson to learn here? Is it important to focus your artistic and personal energies on trying to figure out something that by nature, you can’t figure out?” It’s like trying to document infinity: you can’t do it. As far as you go into infinity, it’s like you ever move, it’s infinite! You and your friends can sit around and be like: “Oh yeah, check it out, we analyzed this one part of a fractal set”. Yeah, but ultimately, when you stand back from it, what is it? It’s that shape, and you either like it, or you don’t. And if you take it any further than that, in my opinion, you’re committing to ways of thinking that are not only anti-social, but have the potential of being very dangerous for you, because you lose the point. The cheeseburger is like an arbitrary metaphor for trying to figure out the meaning of life, when in actual fact, maybe the meaning of life is going to the beach and playing acoustic guitar with your friends and not thinking so much about it. That’s what Ghost is supposed to represent.

Well, thank you for this explanation!

I know, it’s like I’m throwing the cheeseburger thing at people, and they’re like: “What? It’s stupid!” It’s supposed to be. All the complicated elements of “Deconstruction”, all that hyperboles and orchestra, I needed it to be over-the-top to make a statement: see how over-the-top it is? It’s not important. What’s important is making sure you’re solid for your friends and family, and trying to enjoy the one or two great days that we have a month, instead of spending those days worrying about shit that’s beyond our control.

Do you have any ideas what your next project will be now?

I have several ideas, but in the past, all my predictions have gone south. I’m going to spare you from making predictions at this point, but I have a lot of ideas.

You played the whole Ziltoid album at the Tuska festival last year. Why this album in particular? I mean, it’s not your most emblematic album, and why in Finland?

They asked for it. And I’m more interested in the character than in the album, I think the character’s great. I’ve got a lot of plans for him. I want him to have his own TV show, a YouTube thing. I want to do like a science show. I think the character is awesome and his voice is fun. That was a great motivation. Basically, I made the character, then I made the theme song: (he sings) “Ta dadada – Ziiiiltoid!” Then it snowballed into making this record and some dumb metaphor. But after it was done, I still had the character. The guys in Finland liked the character, so they suggested I did the whole record. It gave me an opportunity to do a bunch of video stuff with them. As a result of doing that, it allowed me to see a future for him, to do other things. It’s a ton of fun, Ziltoid is great!

When my colleagues met you at the Hellfest festival last year, you told them that you had a very interesting ass. They asked Gene Hoglan what he thought about it and he said that your ass was like two elbows put together and that he found Byron Stroud’s ass way more interesting than yours. I really have to ask: what would you answer to that?

(laughs) Well, I’m 39 years old, right? When I was like 18, I did have a decent bum. It was in the place it was supposed to be! But as I get older, every year it falls and does different things! I don’t know how old you are…

I’m twenty-five.

Oh, OK. My self-image is still like about 25, you know what I mean? But the other day I was getting into the bathtub, and they had a full-length mirror. There was a cartoon made many years ago, called “Herman”, with these super exaggerated versions of people: there were all kind of hunched over, they had hairy backs… And as I was looking at myself in the mirror, I was like: “Jesus…” In my head, I’m still 25, but at the same time, I’m almost 40! Like, how the hell did that happen?! So when I say that I have a very interesting ass, I think it’s a defence mechanism for me. It’s self-depreciating humour. I think it provides a buffer. As a public person, to do this professionally for so long, you’ve got to be prepared for people to say horrible things about you all the time. At the same time, you’ve got to expect people to say things that are so good about you that they’re unhealthy to pay attention to. My buffer against both is beating them to the punch, and to say: “Not only am I not crazy, but I’m also not a genius”. People usually look at pictures of me and think: “What a funny-looking guy”. So what I do is take hundreds of pictures of myself and put them everywhere. Because then, no matter what picture people present to me, I’ve got one that’s worse! (laughs) In terms of me saying I’ve got a very interesting ass, I personally think humans in general are pretty gross. People as energies are awesome but bodies in general… Humans are kind of nasty. I think it’s a good self-depreciating element; that’s about as far as it gets. Do I actually think that I have an interesting ass? I don’t think so! Maybe when I was 18, but not anymore!

You seem to be very active on the internet: social networks, your website, your forum, etc. For example, you even quoted on Facebook a phrase from the track-by-track review of Deconstruction one of my colleagues wrote, where he compared the album to a “wild musical diarrhea that spatters the listener”…

Oh, yeah, right! It’s Awesome!

Is it important for you to be as close as possible to your fans and to share as much as you can with them?

The thing that was becoming a problem is that, with Internet and Pro Tools and Photoshop, it’s very easy to put yourself out as something that you’re not. Deconstruction, for example, is such a technological record. It’s very easy to give people the impression that you can make yourself into a god very easily. What people need to know is that what I choose to put out is elements of myself that are flattering in terms of music and all that stuff. At the same time, it’s the same thing with pictures: there’s always going to be Photoshop. Pot marks and moles, all that human stuff… In the media now, it’s like you have to be superhuman. But the photos from Deconstruction were made with no make-up. It’s like: “This is me”. I’m getting to the point, I apologize… Because Deconstruction is so hyper-real, with the boxset, I wanted to put the Pro Tools sessions in there, to say: “This is how I did it”. There’s no smoke in mirrors. With computers and Internet, the thing that I really want to achieve – and that’s what I’m hoping to do with Ghost and the social networking – is to say there’s no allusion, there’s no metaphors. It’s what it is. What I chose to put out to the world is a certain thing, but as a person, I’m trying to figure things out and I’m super awkward. I’m socially inept for the most part. It’s important for me to say there’s no allusion here. The thing that I like about playing shows, the reason I want to go on tour, is to meet people. That’s what validates the emotions for me. I’ve got no answers, I’ve only got questions and hypotheses. But what allows me to get to the next stage is when people say: “Oh, no, I get it”. Or when people say: “I get it, but have you ever thought of this?”, or “I don’t get it”. With music, I’m not trying to make statements, I’m just sort of going: “What do you think about this?” And certain people go: “I agree with that”, or “I don’t agree with that”. And I reply: “OK, why don’t you agree with that?”, or “OK, I never thought about that”. And on the next record, I can say: “Now I’m thinking about that”. Maybe on a selfish level, I’m trying to figure shit out. Life is really confusing! I think too much, and I’m trying to not think too much, on religion and money and fate… And bouncing it off people sort of really helps. With the social networking thing, I’m like: “What about this?” The relationships that work best for me are those that are as real as they can be. On the forum, when people really dislike something that I’ve done, I’m like, please, talk about it. You know what I mean? By no means do I think anything that I do is anywhere near perfect. If some people don’t like that, I’m like: “Awesome! Please, bring it, and talk about it!” I’m just trying to figure it out, and it’s nice to be able to say: “What do you think of this? Here’s another platter of bullshit, does any of this work?” And people might come out and say there’s more on this one, or less, or there’s nothing at all on this one. I think it’s healthy and good to be able to provide things that are interesting enough for people to talk about. I totally want people to be honest with it. I don’t want people to be mean, just to be dicks, but I don’t want them to say it’s perfect when it’s not, either. For myself, they’re as perfect as I can make them, but if something’s perfect, it means the person who’s making it is perfect. No way, right?! None of us are perfect. But I think these two records are like, really cool! And at this stage of my life, they’re exactly what I wanted to say. But now they’re done, I’m thinking about what I’ll be doing next time. So with the social networking thing, I’m just trying to say we’re all the same and I really want to add this to the pile of what everybody else is doing. There are people who are on the social networking thing with me that are awesome artists and musicians, and smarter or dumber than me, and it’s nice to be part of a community and say: “Here’s my contribution to that”.

In the end you tend to reflect the image of a good friend rather than that of a rock star. Is this the image you’re more comfortable with?

I’ve had a lot of experiences with rock stars. I like the idea of rock star being like a mental illness in a certain way, where validation requires acceptance from strangers. I don’t like thinking that… I mean, it’s inevitable that people are going to make assumptions on you. What I would like to do is be as honest with that as I can, with my music and my contributions. If people view rock stars as people who appear in magazines and make shows, then I mean, sure, OK. But for me, what rock star means is people who are unaccountable for what they’re doing, because they’ve been told somewhere along the line that they’re more important than anybody else. I’ve got children, I’ve got family and friends that work at the mill, and if I’m in any social situation that’s dear to me, with the impression that my problems and my thoughts are more important than anybody else’s, I’m not gonna be able to be involved in many social things. Whenever I see people call the audience their fans, I think that implies that they think what they do is of more importance. I am no more important than the people who listen to the music. However, my role is different; I write my element of it, and I perform it. I do my job with interviews and everything. It’s a good job and I enjoy it. But that’s my role. And I think that, in order for this to work, in order for what I want to do to work, I have my role, and the listeners have theirs. Nothing’s more important or less important. It’s just different aspects of one thing. I’d love to make a ton of money one day. I really would, because I’ve spent a great deal of my time just trying to get from point A to point B. However, that being said, when it comes to downloading, do it. Go for it. The only way I can continue is if I make some money, right? So if you like it, come to the show or buy a shirt or whatever. But ultimately, what do I want? Do I want to make a ton of money or do I want people to hear what I do? And I’ll take people hearing what I do over making money. But maybe if we could find some way… That’s why I’m hoping maybe we could make some Ziltoid dolls!

It would be a huge success!

Totally! If somebody told me: “Here’s enough money for you to never make music again”, every time I made a record, I would put it up for download. But at this point, it’s what I do; I’ve got a kid and a mortgage and shit, so it sucks. I’ve got to charge for it. But if people want to download, I’ve got zero problem with it, right.

You are the first artist I ever interviewed to say that…

Seriously? It doesn’t make much sense to not want people to hear it. I mean, I put a lot of effort in it, and I’d love to make some money one day, but really, if I’m doing this to make money, then… Then shit, we should be doing it in a different way! I never made a decision to do this, I just ended up being a musician, somewhere along the line. I’m very fortunate to be in this situation; I make enough money to pay my rent, so that’s awesome. And I think that in order for it to be honest, people should be free to analyze it, disregard it, like, dislike it, take it, or pay for it. It doesn’t matter. Honestly, if no one ever paid for a record again, I would find a way to make a living. There’s things I can do. So go for it!

Interview conducted by Saff on april, 8th 2011.

Questions & Introduction by Spaceman

Transcription : Saff & Lucas

Devin Townsend’s Website : hevydevy.com